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	<title>Comments on: A Critique of the Empathizing-Systemizing (E-S) Theory</title>
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	<description>Reports from Life on the Spectrum</description>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/07/a-critique-of-the-empathizing-systemizing-e-s-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-62948</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2943#comment-62948</guid>
		<description>P.S. April, I now want to write a book called &quot;Deconstructing an Idiot into Oblivion.&quot; There&#039;s definitely enough idiocy in the world to fill a couple hundred pages, and with a title like that, I think the book would sell. However, since I&#039;m working on my memoir, I&#039;ll have to file away that idea for awhile. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. April, I now want to write a book called &#8220;Deconstructing an Idiot into Oblivion.&#8221; There&#8217;s definitely enough idiocy in the world to fill a couple hundred pages, and with a title like that, I think the book would sell. However, since I&#8217;m working on my memoir, I&#8217;ll have to file away that idea for awhile. <img src='http://www.journeyswithautism.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/07/a-critique-of-the-empathizing-systemizing-e-s-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-62944</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2943#comment-62944</guid>
		<description>Hi everyone, and thanks for your kudos. 

And to Jason, welcome and thanks for posting. I agree with every word you wrote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi everyone, and thanks for your kudos. </p>
<p>And to Jason, welcome and thanks for posting. I agree with every word you wrote.</p>
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		<title>By: April</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/07/a-critique-of-the-empathizing-systemizing-e-s-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-62931</link>
		<dc:creator>April</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2943#comment-62931</guid>
		<description>Brilliant! Once again you&#039;ve deconstructed an idiot into oblivion. Bet he&#039;d be rather surprised I&#039;ve got a psych degree because I wanted to HELP people afflicted with psychiatrists who were too wrapped up in their theories to actually listen to the needs of their patients.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant! Once again you&#8217;ve deconstructed an idiot into oblivion. Bet he&#8217;d be rather surprised I&#8217;ve got a psych degree because I wanted to HELP people afflicted with psychiatrists who were too wrapped up in their theories to actually listen to the needs of their patients.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dale Lyons</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/07/a-critique-of-the-empathizing-systemizing-e-s-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-62926</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dale Lyons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2943#comment-62926</guid>
		<description>Did I mention that I&#039;m horrible at math and bad at spatial relations?  But I excel verbally. Take that- S. B-C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did I mention that I&#8217;m horrible at math and bad at spatial relations?  But I excel verbally. Take that- S. B-C.</p>
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		<title>By: Saja</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/07/a-critique-of-the-empathizing-systemizing-e-s-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-62898</link>
		<dc:creator>Saja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 07:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2943#comment-62898</guid>
		<description>Wow....I&#039;ll have to let my mother-in-law (tennis techniques), the folks over at Merriam-Webster (collecting words and word meanings), the well-known and highly acclaimed jury of So You Think You Can Dance  (analyzing dance techniques), and my local Feng Shui designer (insisting nothing is moved from its place in the room) know they&#039;re autistic. Along with the rest of the universe.

Another excellent post, Rachel. You write well, and your sense of humor is just the icing on the cake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow&#8230;.I&#8217;ll have to let my mother-in-law (tennis techniques), the folks over at Merriam-Webster (collecting words and word meanings), the well-known and highly acclaimed jury of So You Think You Can Dance  (analyzing dance techniques), and my local Feng Shui designer (insisting nothing is moved from its place in the room) know they&#8217;re autistic. Along with the rest of the universe.</p>
<p>Another excellent post, Rachel. You write well, and your sense of humor is just the icing on the cake.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Gardner</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/07/a-critique-of-the-empathizing-systemizing-e-s-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-62889</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 05:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2943#comment-62889</guid>
		<description>Sorry, for the double post:

As a side note.  I do math synesthetically as combination of colors.  I am horrid at addition and subtraction but excel at division and multiplication (color ratios seem easy for some reason).  I almost can’t do algebra at all (letters don’t trigger the colors).  Oddly, I am excellent at statistics and calculus.  I do calculus using my language center and simply read it as if it were just a second language.  Baron-Cohen is way off :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, for the double post:</p>
<p>As a side note.  I do math synesthetically as combination of colors.  I am horrid at addition and subtraction but excel at division and multiplication (color ratios seem easy for some reason).  I almost can’t do algebra at all (letters don’t trigger the colors).  Oddly, I am excellent at statistics and calculus.  I do calculus using my language center and simply read it as if it were just a second language.  Baron-Cohen is way off <img src='http://www.journeyswithautism.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jason Gardner</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/07/a-critique-of-the-empathizing-systemizing-e-s-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-62887</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 05:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2943#comment-62887</guid>
		<description>Hello all.  I&#039;ve been reading this blog (thanks to my wife) for a while now. Figured that I might as well finally pipe up.  

No doubt that much of the research into autism and Aspergers is beneficial.  However, I postulate that the majority of the benefit favors the neurotypical and mostly excludes those of us most directly affected.  

Much of the hypotheses put forth by Simon Baron-Cohen seem to focus on development of a pathological description.  It is for this reason that I challenge even the entertainment of many of Baron-Cohen’s conclusions.  Pathology (even psychopathology) posits an assumed disease state that is abnormal in function and creates an impairment of health.  

Conventional thinking suggests that autism is the behavioral result of a neurological difference.  Assuming this is correct, the first posit of the pathological approach is satisfied.  I instead challenge the suggestion that it causes an impairment of health and thus likely is outside the realm of psychopathology.

Admittedly, I am only working from my own point of view here.  My “problems” revolve around sensory integration issues that create an anxiety condition.  It is the anxiety that is an impairment, indirectly due to my AS.  However, if care is taken in managing my environment, I fair reasonably well.  I acknowledge that this may not be true for other aspies.

Autism researchers, including Baron-Cohen, also seem to focus on the social aspects of autism disorders.  This is paradoxical to me as I believe that the social differences are caused by the condition and are not the condition itself.  Focusing on pathologically describing it is thus similar to giving someone with pneumonia a cough suppressant.  It simply focuses on what disturbs society, not what bothers the person afflicted.  

Even this analogy is lacking it seems, since it still assumes a disease state. Maybe it is more analogous to bleaching the skin of a dark skinned individual in order make them “fit in better.”  Their increased integration alleviates the disease state.

I currently believe that public awareness is the best route to increased social understanding.  There is likely a social benefit to public understand of our differences in behavior.  I don’t mind my differences as much as I mind the embarrassment of trying to explain to a waitress why I don’t want to sit next to the table with the screaming children and the big plastic bin where they dump dishes.  I suffer more from the funny looks when I say something like, “I have trouble with sounds.”  Most of my problems seem have to do with society’s lack of empathy for me more so than my lack of empathy for others.  If the major concern of the neurotypical is the social behavioral differences, then the problem should be addressed socially, not pathologically.

All that said, I am a scientist (biochemist) myself and deeply support continued research in autism.  It is greatly needed.  However, I would like to see more aspie contribution in the direction of the research.  Some internal insight might help get these Baron-Cohen types spending their effort on something more useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello all.  I&#8217;ve been reading this blog (thanks to my wife) for a while now. Figured that I might as well finally pipe up.  </p>
<p>No doubt that much of the research into autism and Aspergers is beneficial.  However, I postulate that the majority of the benefit favors the neurotypical and mostly excludes those of us most directly affected.  </p>
<p>Much of the hypotheses put forth by Simon Baron-Cohen seem to focus on development of a pathological description.  It is for this reason that I challenge even the entertainment of many of Baron-Cohen’s conclusions.  Pathology (even psychopathology) posits an assumed disease state that is abnormal in function and creates an impairment of health.  </p>
<p>Conventional thinking suggests that autism is the behavioral result of a neurological difference.  Assuming this is correct, the first posit of the pathological approach is satisfied.  I instead challenge the suggestion that it causes an impairment of health and thus likely is outside the realm of psychopathology.</p>
<p>Admittedly, I am only working from my own point of view here.  My “problems” revolve around sensory integration issues that create an anxiety condition.  It is the anxiety that is an impairment, indirectly due to my AS.  However, if care is taken in managing my environment, I fair reasonably well.  I acknowledge that this may not be true for other aspies.</p>
<p>Autism researchers, including Baron-Cohen, also seem to focus on the social aspects of autism disorders.  This is paradoxical to me as I believe that the social differences are caused by the condition and are not the condition itself.  Focusing on pathologically describing it is thus similar to giving someone with pneumonia a cough suppressant.  It simply focuses on what disturbs society, not what bothers the person afflicted.  </p>
<p>Even this analogy is lacking it seems, since it still assumes a disease state. Maybe it is more analogous to bleaching the skin of a dark skinned individual in order make them “fit in better.”  Their increased integration alleviates the disease state.</p>
<p>I currently believe that public awareness is the best route to increased social understanding.  There is likely a social benefit to public understand of our differences in behavior.  I don’t mind my differences as much as I mind the embarrassment of trying to explain to a waitress why I don’t want to sit next to the table with the screaming children and the big plastic bin where they dump dishes.  I suffer more from the funny looks when I say something like, “I have trouble with sounds.”  Most of my problems seem have to do with society’s lack of empathy for me more so than my lack of empathy for others.  If the major concern of the neurotypical is the social behavioral differences, then the problem should be addressed socially, not pathologically.</p>
<p>All that said, I am a scientist (biochemist) myself and deeply support continued research in autism.  It is greatly needed.  However, I would like to see more aspie contribution in the direction of the research.  Some internal insight might help get these Baron-Cohen types spending their effort on something more useful.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/07/a-critique-of-the-empathizing-systemizing-e-s-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-62873</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2943#comment-62873</guid>
		<description>grrrr. it&#039;s a hard thing looking at B-C no longer as a supporter. i like that people are trying, but definitely used to the not-getting-it part.
oh, and count me as another one not so great at math. i managed to keep my &#039;A&#039; in algebra up until i could drop the subject, but only with the help of my teacher, who understood that i could get many answers correct, but could not always demonstrate comprehension in the usual manner. once the math problems got more complex, i could no longer juggle the pictures in my head, and would literally bang my head on my desk. and as much as i don&#039;t want to undermine all those parents out there, no, i have not used algebra in the last twenty years, so there. but i do love science! science is great! stay in school! say no to drugs!
and also, add me to the pile of us who love organizing objects. when i worked in art supply stores, i would take the coloured pencil sets out of the display case, and arrange the pencils in the boxes in chromatic order, then put them back, feeling much better.
now i&#039;m a full time painter, and need to spend time every day making sure i don&#039;t get too stuck in the rules i make up for how a painting should develop. i keep reminding myself that i made the rules, and i&#039;m allowed to make up new ones, or, heaven forbid, break them.
thanks again Rachel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>grrrr. it&#8217;s a hard thing looking at B-C no longer as a supporter. i like that people are trying, but definitely used to the not-getting-it part.<br />
oh, and count me as another one not so great at math. i managed to keep my &#8216;A&#8217; in algebra up until i could drop the subject, but only with the help of my teacher, who understood that i could get many answers correct, but could not always demonstrate comprehension in the usual manner. once the math problems got more complex, i could no longer juggle the pictures in my head, and would literally bang my head on my desk. and as much as i don&#8217;t want to undermine all those parents out there, no, i have not used algebra in the last twenty years, so there. but i do love science! science is great! stay in school! say no to drugs!<br />
and also, add me to the pile of us who love organizing objects. when i worked in art supply stores, i would take the coloured pencil sets out of the display case, and arrange the pencils in the boxes in chromatic order, then put them back, feeling much better.<br />
now i&#8217;m a full time painter, and need to spend time every day making sure i don&#8217;t get too stuck in the rules i make up for how a painting should develop. i keep reminding myself that i made the rules, and i&#8217;m allowed to make up new ones, or, heaven forbid, break them.<br />
thanks again Rachel.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dale Lyons</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/07/a-critique-of-the-empathizing-systemizing-e-s-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-62871</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dale Lyons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2943#comment-62871</guid>
		<description>What B-C says applies to some of the people some of the time, but not to all the auties all of the time.  Sometimes I misread people, or I am not sure how to react, esp. if overwhelmed.  But life experience helps me get better at that.  I don&#039;t need a computer program; life experience combined with  therapy has been helpful to me.  B-C overgeneralizes.  He is not always wrong, but categories such as &quot;male brain&quot; behavior are not helpful or descriptive.  (It stereotypes men- some of whom are very empathic w/o being non-masculine.)  S.B-C should take Rachel&#039;s critiques seriously and refine his theories.  .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What B-C says applies to some of the people some of the time, but not to all the auties all of the time.  Sometimes I misread people, or I am not sure how to react, esp. if overwhelmed.  But life experience helps me get better at that.  I don&#8217;t need a computer program; life experience combined with  therapy has been helpful to me.  B-C overgeneralizes.  He is not always wrong, but categories such as &#8220;male brain&#8221; behavior are not helpful or descriptive.  (It stereotypes men- some of whom are very empathic w/o being non-masculine.)  S.B-C should take Rachel&#8217;s critiques seriously and refine his theories.  .</p>
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		<title>By: Crystal</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/07/a-critique-of-the-empathizing-systemizing-e-s-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-62856</link>
		<dc:creator>Crystal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2943#comment-62856</guid>
		<description>Dear Mister Baron-Cohen,

THPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!

Sincerely,
Crystal

Okay but really.  I completely agree that while he seems to be something of a... let&#039;s say &quot;average&quot; to &quot;above average&quot; observer of Autistic behavior, I don&#039;t think he gets the POINT of that behavior AT ALL.

Oh, and I STINK at math.  Well the basics I can do quite well, but my algebra and calculus skills are TEH SUCK.  And I aced physics.  wtf?  Anyway.

Personally, I&#039;m a sorter, for the same reasons that you mentioned you stim... it soothes me, helps me find order in the chaos.  I have a &quot;filing cabinet in my brain&quot; that my therapist, despite not being an Autism professional, has learned to utilize quite well in helping me decide where to put certain behaviors in regards to certain people.  IE, my empathy system goes &quot;Ashley does not like this, I will not do this around Ashley.  Chris prefers to be comforted in this way, I will comfort him in this way.  Rachel enjoys this, so when Rachel is down I will do this to help.&quot;  etc.  Granted, particular things don&#039;t work EVERY SINGLE TIME to achieve a desired goal (making a person feel better, making a person feel loved, acknowledged, etc.), but it&#039;s still a pretty good &quot;system&quot;.  Planting me in front of a DVD of people&#039;s facial expressions and attaching words to them like an elaborate flash-card game just seems like a BAD IDEA... because different people have different facial expressions and knowing which means what takes GETTING TO KNOW THEM, and if I&#039;ve got filing cabinets full of generalized facial expressions I am going to be WORSE at reading from one person to another.  I think in this way, actually, some of us are BETTER at empathizing than the NT world, because we&#039;re paying more careful attention to an individuals cues.  Maybe that&#039;s just em, but that&#039;s how I see it.

Oh, also, I TOTALLY spin in my chair. Like, ALL THE TIME.  And trampolines are FRIGGIN&#039; AWESOME.  Just sayin&#039;. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Mister Baron-Cohen,</p>
<p>THPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!</p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
Crystal</p>
<p>Okay but really.  I completely agree that while he seems to be something of a&#8230; let&#8217;s say &#8220;average&#8221; to &#8220;above average&#8221; observer of Autistic behavior, I don&#8217;t think he gets the POINT of that behavior AT ALL.</p>
<p>Oh, and I STINK at math.  Well the basics I can do quite well, but my algebra and calculus skills are TEH SUCK.  And I aced physics.  wtf?  Anyway.</p>
<p>Personally, I&#8217;m a sorter, for the same reasons that you mentioned you stim&#8230; it soothes me, helps me find order in the chaos.  I have a &#8220;filing cabinet in my brain&#8221; that my therapist, despite not being an Autism professional, has learned to utilize quite well in helping me decide where to put certain behaviors in regards to certain people.  IE, my empathy system goes &#8220;Ashley does not like this, I will not do this around Ashley.  Chris prefers to be comforted in this way, I will comfort him in this way.  Rachel enjoys this, so when Rachel is down I will do this to help.&#8221;  etc.  Granted, particular things don&#8217;t work EVERY SINGLE TIME to achieve a desired goal (making a person feel better, making a person feel loved, acknowledged, etc.), but it&#8217;s still a pretty good &#8220;system&#8221;.  Planting me in front of a DVD of people&#8217;s facial expressions and attaching words to them like an elaborate flash-card game just seems like a BAD IDEA&#8230; because different people have different facial expressions and knowing which means what takes GETTING TO KNOW THEM, and if I&#8217;ve got filing cabinets full of generalized facial expressions I am going to be WORSE at reading from one person to another.  I think in this way, actually, some of us are BETTER at empathizing than the NT world, because we&#8217;re paying more careful attention to an individuals cues.  Maybe that&#8217;s just em, but that&#8217;s how I see it.</p>
<p>Oh, also, I TOTALLY spin in my chair. Like, ALL THE TIME.  And trampolines are FRIGGIN&#8217; AWESOME.  Just sayin&#8217;. <img src='http://www.journeyswithautism.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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